# Webflow CEO: The Playbook Behind Webflow's $4 Billion Valuation NEW ECONOMIES · 2026-09-13 Linda Tong, CEO of Webflow, argues that in the age of AI the hard skill is no longer building but knowing what is worth building, warning that fast building tools have flooded the web with 'internet garbage.' She explains Webflow's shift from a $4 billion website builder into an agentic marketing platform solving the 'then what' after you hit publish, with closed-loop agents like its AEO agent. Tong says AI is a technology, not a strategy: models have nailed code generation but lack taste, so Webflow partners with multiple labs and open weight models per task. She argues pricing should be metered close to value, predicts websites will go through a 'Google Maps evolution' into personalized, agent-indexed context, and says winning still means solving a real problem better than anyone. ## Questions this episode answers ### What does Linda Tong mean by 'internet garbage' and why is knowing what to build a value question? Linda Tong says that with the ability to build fast, people have built a lot of things but not necessarily delivered value, calling it 'internet garbage.' She notes that of 1.2 billion websites, only around 200 million represented real businesses. Knowing what to build isn't a capability question but a value question: what problem are you solving, for whom, and what value does it deliver. [4:52](https://neweconomies.podhood.com/b83423a0-ad2a-4732-8519-6b38a38bb937?t=292000) ### How should software companies think about pricing in the AI era — subscription, seats, consumption, or outcome-based? Linda Tong says to go back to first principles: price as close as possible to the value you deliver. Subscription, seat-based, consumption, token-based, and outcome-based pricing are all just progressively closer meters on value. She predicts combinations — a low access price plus a metered, value-based price — like Datadog charging for environment coverage plus data volume. [22:01](https://neweconomies.podhood.com/b83423a0-ad2a-4732-8519-6b38a38bb937?t=1321000) ### Will websites still be relevant, and how will they change? Linda Tong argues websites become the most important source of truth and context on the digital world, accessed by bots and answer engines, not just browsers. She predicts a 'Google Maps evolution': instead of static pages like MapQuest directions, sites will constantly adapt to each visitor, citing Nike showing only sneakers in her selected size as an early example. [32:10](https://neweconomies.podhood.com/b83423a0-ad2a-4732-8519-6b38a38bb937?t=1930000) ### Is taste the next biggest moat in the age of AI? Ollie says creators tell him taste will be the biggest moat separating people from those just using AI tools. Linda Tong agrees it's multifaceted: Webflow bakes taste into its product, its design team defines new UX paradigms for AI-era software, and she wants humans with strong opinions guiding development, since models can write clean code but don't necessarily have taste. [12:01](https://neweconomies.podhood.com/b83423a0-ad2a-4732-8519-6b38a38bb937?t=721000) ## Key moments - **[0:00] Intro** - [0:00] Webflow CEO Linda Tong: fast AI building has created "internet garbage" that delivers no value - [0:45] Linda Tong: "AI is just a technology. It's not actually a strategy" — the one-employee-and-millions-of-agents narrative isn't real - **[2:43] The shift** - [4:13] Webflow's shift from website builder to solving everything that happens after you hit publish - **[4:23] What to build** - [7:03] Of 1.2 billion websites, only about 200 million were active — Linda Tong on why building fast doesn't mean delivering value - **[8:03] Supporting builders** - [8:39] Linda Tong: knowing what to build is a value question, not a capability question — the core skill of the creator economy - **[9:18] Taste & agents** - [10:44] Linda Tong on Lovable's $400M raise and Base44's 10M users: rivals have commoditized creation, not solved what's worth building - [13:41] Webflow's agentic marketing platform: agents that spot French traffic and suggest localizing, or flag falling ChatGPT referrals - [15:37] Linda Tong: Webflow will never partner with just one AI model — there's no super model, so match each task to a specialized model - **[16:04] Challenges** - [18:22] Why AI models can nail code generation but still lack taste: Linda Tong on building beautiful, on-brand websites - [20:28] Linda Tong on taste as the next moat: Webflow's design team leads the new UI for the AI era, not delegated agents - **[21:10] Pricing** - [23:53] Closed-loop agents: Linda Tong says say "drive this much pipeline," not "write me a campaign brief" — agents should run until the goal is met - **[25:11] CEO role** - [25:58] Webflow's AEO agent: how it improves your visibility on answer engines by pushing content and schema changes in a loop - [27:01] Linda Tong: "I've replaced all my employees with agents" is just not real — you still need human judgment and oversight - **[28:36] Future of web** - [32:09] The SDR job isn't obsolete, it's transformed: Linda Tong on entry-level careers managing teams of AI agents - [35:34] Pricing from first principles: Linda Tong on why subscription, seats, tokens and outcome-based pricing all chase the same goal — pricing close to value - **[36:26] Running & winning** - [39:19] The hybrid pricing model on the rise: a low access price plus a metered value-based price, like Datadog - [44:12] Every model update can break your product: Linda Tong on why eval systems are the most important thing you build - **[45:10] Off the clock** - [47:34] Webflow no longer has a 12-month roadmap — just six-month plans and monthly reviews, says Linda Tong - [50:09] Linda Tong's prediction: websites become the web's source of truth, accessed by bots and answer engines, not just URLs - **[50:55] The vision** - [51:58] Websites will go through the Google Maps evolution: from static pages to experiences that reshape themselves around each visitor ## Speakers - **Ollie Forsyth** (host) - **Linda Tong** (guest) ## Topics AI, Software & SaaS ## Mentioned Airtable (company), Base44 (company), Datadog (company), Lovable (company), Nike (company), Webflow (company), Wix (company), ChatGPT (product), Claude (product), MapQuest (product), Perplexity (product) ## Transcript ### Intro **Linda Tong** [0:00] Building a website is not the hard thing anymore; it's actually quite easy. And so what we're seeing is what I've been calling, like, "internet garbage." With the ability to build fast, I think people have built a lot of things, but not necessarily delivered value. Knowing what to build? That's not a capability question. It is a value question. It is, do you understand what problems you're trying to solve, what are you trying to put out there, and, like, for whom. And a lot of people don't ask those questions when the ability to build something takes a very simple prompt. And that is a core skill set that I push today, is people think about, like, this creator economy. Make sure what you're creating actually. **Ollie Forsyth** [0:32] This is Linda Tong, CEO of Webflow. She leads a $4 billion platform trusted by over 300,000 businesses, and today she's breaking down how to cut through the AI noise and how you can create real value in this current landscape. **Linda Tong** [0:45] AI is just a technology. It's not actually a strategy. There's this narrative out there that's like, "Oh, with AI, like, you only need one employee and then, like, millions of agents and everything run agentically—go watch Netflix." Like, we are not there. Because you still need people with judgment and with an understanding of quality to actually keep a lot of these workflows in line. So a good example is a lot of models have nailed code generation. But while any model can write that, like, it doesn't necessarily have taste. This is an area where I want humans with, like, strong opinions and perspectives and experience who are really guiding what that ends up looking like and how that works. And what really should be happening is you want agents to act like strategic co-workers with goals in mind, where you can say, "I want you to go complete this task and do it well and get to this kind of an outcome." And the agent should actually keep running until it reaches that goal. And so everyone can be a builder now, but the way to win is the same way to win that everyone has always leaned on, regardless of, like, what era you're in, which is. **Ollie Forsyth** [1:45] Welcome to New Economies. Linda, welcome to New Economies. Thank you so much for joining us today. **Linda Tong** [2:03] Of course. Thank you for having me. Really stoked to be here. **Ollie Forsyth** [2:05] You know, we got connected a few weeks ago, and even in the last few weeks, everything just keeps changing in this vibe coding, website building space. What do you make of everything that's just happening? **Linda Tong** [2:17] It's probably the most exciting time to be a builder. The technology is transforming. What was possible just six weeks ago is completely different now. And so for me, it's like the most exciting time to be here. For Webflow, we are transforming ourselves as a business. And, you know, as a leader of a company that's in the heart of this space, it is probably the, like, most exciting and interesting time to be leading a business. **Ollie Forsyth** [2:43] What's changed the most about Webflow in the last 12 months when you think about transitioning this into a durable company that's going to remain relevant? ### The shift **Linda Tong** [2:53] So for people who have known Webflow, you know, we've been around for, you know, 14 years now. Webflow started as a website builder. People thought of us as a place to very quickly go and build a website, you know, visually and, like, without actually having to deal with code. Over the past 12 months, what's really happened is we shifted from a world where you could come and build and create with us to the world that happens after you hit publish. It's, you know, building a website is not the hard thing anymore. It's actually quite easy and really fun. And so what happens with that website when you publish it? Like, how are you driving traffic? How are you iterating that site? How are you, like, understanding what users are doing and making sure that you're actually creating theright user journeys? It's the analytics, the optimization, the experimentation. How do you drive discovery? Those are, frankly, the hard problems that have happened in the world, and those are the ones that still need to be solved, and they're the ones that Webflow is focused on now. And so while you can still build with us, it's everything else that happens after publish that's really where we've made our special spot. **Ollie Forsyth** [3:53] I also think it's knowing what to build. We had one of your competitors on the show, Base44, who also just reached 10M users,right, in the last 24 hours. Everything is just happening in live time now,right? But I think it's also just knowing what to build. And they made a really interesting point around, yeah, anyone can build a really good website, but it's actually knowing what to build when you have so many options available. What's your take on that? You know, how should builders actually be thinking about what to build versus knowing what to build? ### What to build **Linda Tong** [4:23] Yeah. And, you know, it's funny. I joined Webflow a little over four years ago, and I remember I was doing research on, like, the market, and I remember around that time, there's about, like, 1.2 billion websites on, like, sort of that were, like, live on the internet at the time. I don't know what that number is today, but I bet you it's, like, multiplied. However, of those 1.2 billion websites, the number that were active that, you know, people were, like, actually using and representing real businesses was somewhere around the 200 million mark. And I don't think that that has really changed that much. And so what's happenedright now is with the ability to build fast, I think people have built a lot of things, but not necessarily delivered value. And so to your point of, like, knowing what to build, that's not a capability question. It is a value question. It is, do you understand what problems you're trying to solve? What are you trying to put out there? And, like, for whom. And a lot of people don't ask those questions when the ability to build something takes a very simple prompt. And so what we're seeing is, you know, what I've been calling, like, internet garbage. But, like, what I've been guiding people on is when you think about a problem that excites you, think about something that can actually deliver value to many more people out there, that is the nugget that should give you enough sort of, like, emphasis to say, "Okay, now I'm going to go build a website for it," or, "I'm going to go build an app for it." And from there, if you see people who are interacting with it, who are discovering it and finding value, that's when you iterate and you grow it. And not enough people are asking that question anymore. And, like, you know, it's a core problem that any product manager would ask before they build anything, which is, "Why am I building this? For whom? And, you know, what is the value?" And that is a core skill set that I push today. As people think about, like, this creator economy, make sure what you're creating actually delivers real value to someone. **Ollie Forsyth** [6:08] And now,right, there are so many other platforms that we can all build on. Like, we go way back,right, with the creator economy back in '21. As a builder, you maybe had Wix, you had Webflow, but really, like, there weren't that many,right? Now there are many, many options. And the reason why is good timing today,right? Base44 just announced 10M users, I think, last night. Today, Lovable just raised $400M. Claude is doing so much in this space. When all of these company updates keep happening, it's also a massive distraction for the founders and CEOs,right? How difficult is it out there in the market? **Linda Tong** [6:44] It's actually not that difficult, to be honest. Like, when you see a lot of people raising money, what it's proving is that there is this desire. There's this innate desire where people want to put their hands on something and they want to build something. What that still hasn't solved is that problem you just brought up, which is, like, knowing what to build,right? There's this desire to create, but the core thesis of what to create that's going to deliver value, that's not a problem that's been solved by these companies. All we've done is commoditized the creation capability. And so for me, I'm still focused on, one, I'm going to trust that people know what they want to build and we'll figure out something great to build. But more importantly, once you figure out what to build, what comes after, which is, how do I make it valuable? How do I drive discovery? How do I make sure that it's actually meeting those needs? Because building products isn't a one-shot thing. It's a, "I'm going to try something. I want to iterate it. I want to find product-market fit." And where we've been focused and where, you know, where Webflow has really shown in the last 12 to 24 months is if you have a great idea, you can build it here, but more importantly, you can nurture it and grow it here. And, like, that's something that's been, frankly, like, a focusing point for us as a company. And so, yeah, everybody else, like, validating the builder capabilities, I think that's great. What we've shown is the more that people build, in theory, the more value that they want to drive from it. And so we're the perfect next step. ### Supporting builders **Ollie Forsyth** [8:03] You know, this is exactly what builders need. They have an idea, they get something going. Next, they need customers, they need distribution, and they almost think they just need that sparring partner to build with. How do you think about that, supporting builders to the next level? Because most builders are building solo,right? **Linda Tong** [8:21] A lot of people, they start to build something and they realize, like, yeah, they want that partner or they need help. And so a lot of what we've built, Webflow has been building what we call an agentic marketing platform, which is once you've launched something, if you don't have that sparring partner, maybe you want an agent that works with you, someone who can say, "Hey, here's an experiment you might want to consider." Or, "Hey, here's an insight I'm seeing on the traffic that's coming to your site," and you may want to, like, "Maybe I'm seeing half your traffic is French. You should think about localizing for the French audience." Or, "I'm actually starting to see a lot less traffic from ChatGPT, but more from, you know, Perplexity. Maybe you're not ranking well on that answer engine. How do we start to actually drive content there so you can actually show up in the spaces you want to?" And we can be that sparring partner. We can provide agentic recommendations as well as actioning to help those people continue to invest in the site or the app that they've built to grow it and to actually turn it into, like, a meaningful product in the market. ### Taste & agents **Ollie Forsyth** [9:18] How do you think about partnering with these AI models? You know, now we have four or five. We just had Reid Hoffman on the show, co-founder of LinkedIn, and he actually thinks maybe there are going to be 10 or 15 models in the next few years. I don't think this is talked about enough. How do companies think about partnering with AI models, and how do you choose which one to go with? **Linda Tong** [9:37] I don't know if there's a world where we would partner with just one,right? Like, each one has a specialty. You can already see, like,right now, like, for Webflow, we're a creative technology where the way that AI shows up within our product is multifaceted. You might have a model that's powering our ability to, like, build a website, the model that creates code components, the model that does text translation, a model that does text generation, a model that does image generation. Like, those are fundamentally different capabilities, and there isn't a, what I would call, like, a super model that does everything perfectly well, efficiently, and cost-effectively. And what I'm seeing in the world across all these frontier labs, as well as anyone else who's creating models, like, they're starting to specialize and create these verticalized models. And so you really actually have to partner with multiple labs and actually look at some of the open weight models as well, because especially for Webflow, there are certain things that we do that might be just more specialized to us. And we need to think about what's the best model for the task at hand and how do we match that effectively. And so for us, you know, we're partnering with the big labsright now to work on some of the more common, what I would say, like, capabilities. Like, code generation is one that's been solved really well by quite a few of these models, and image generation as well. But as we start to go deeper and deeper into our stack of agentic workflows, there are some areas where I think we're going to have to look at open weight models. **Ollie Forsyth** [10:56] What do you think these AI models do really well out today, and what still frustrates you? **Linda Tong** [11:02] I mean, like,right now, I think a lot of models have nailed code generation. Like, they've really nailed the language. For us, there are two things that are critical to Webflow that are unique to us as a business in that it's a creative platform at its heart. So creating a beautiful, well-designed website is very different from creating a website that's code compliant,right? That just has clean and semantic HTML, CSS, JavaScript. While any model can write that, like, it doesn't necessarily have taste. And one of the hardest things to understand is, like, are you building, like, a beautiful, elegant, thoughtful site, and is it truly yours and on-brand? So understanding a company's brand essence and then being able to reflect that in design, no one's quite delivered that yet. And so that's an area that I think is more specialized to us, that we've been building our own harness to, like, understand what's great, what's not, and how to, like, interpret brand and reflect that through that. And so that's something that, you know, I'd love for someone else to solve it, but I do think it's something that is natively unique to our context that we probably have to help guide. **Ollie Forsyth** [12:01] You know, when I speak to creators and builders, this is actually the one thing we say. Taste is going to be the biggest moat that's going to make you different from people who just use other AI models or other tools,right? Because at the end of the day, you want to remain relevant, you want to look great, you want to build a brand, but it's really hard to do. As you've been building these different models personally as a Webflow product, what's been the hardest aspect in actually thinking about how do you build a great product around taste? **Linda Tong** [12:28] It's a multifaceted problem. One, like, there's the, how do we build a product that taste can be baked in so that we can emphasize what creators on our own platform want to do? And you want to have models that understand taste, but also create space for the creator to really make it their own. And that's the natural area that we think a lot. But the other thing is, like, as we build our product, we ourselves need to reflect taste. And, like, one of the most exciting parts of building has been, what is the new UI for Webflow? How should people be interacting with software? And, you know, what are the different UX paradigms that are being introducedright now with AI? And our design team is the heart and center of that. And we think a lot about what are these experiences and how do we reflect that we as a company value taste and show that through the products that we build. And that's something that, you know, where I think a lot of people have sort of thought about delegating software development out to agentic workflows. This is an area where I want humans with, like, strong opinions and perspectives and experience who are really guiding what that ends up looking like and how that works and, like, how do we really unlock the next generation of user experience for the software that we're building. **Ollie Forsyth** [13:42] What do you think is still missing from this, you know, agentic stack? It feels like, you know, these AI models are crack code. Next, you know, maybe you guys do taste. Next, you know, is there some form of co-founder, co-builder who actually builds these products with you? Is that maybe the next big opportunity? **Linda Tong** [13:59] Yeah, I think. **Ollie Forsyth** [14:00] Co-workers. **Linda Tong** [14:01] I think co-workers,right? Yeah, I think, you know, one of the things that we're trying to build is what I would call, like, what we've been positioning as closed-loop, like, agentic workers. There are things that you want to do where, you know, I think a lot of people talk about their agents where they're like, "Oh, I have an agent that does this and an agent that does that." And a lot of times it's like, you kick off the agent, it goes in to complete the task, and then it brings back something, you know, a deliverable or an outcome. And then you, again, as, like, the sort of owner, need to apply judgment and strategy and then either guide it to a next task or hand it off to another agent or whatnot. And what really should be happening is you want agents to act like strategic co-workers with goals in mind where you can say, "I want you to go complete this task and do it well and get to this kind of an outcome." And it should actually run through these tasks, evaluate the success of it, and then keep running until it gets to the kind of outcome you want. And so instead of saying, "Write me a campaign brief," you should be able to say, "I want to run a campaign that drives this kind of outcome. I want to drive this much pipeline to my business." And the agent should actually keep running until it reaches that goal. And so it should write a campaign brief, launch the campaign, measure the success of it, iterate it, and keep going and continuously operate in the background. And so, you know, we've unlocked, you know, a couple of closed-loop agents within Webflow ready to demonstrate what we think of that. So we have an AEO agent that does that today. So if you say, "Hey, I want to show up on, you know, this answer engine for the topic of, you know, maybe you're building a, I don't know, a trucking business," and you're like, "When people search for trucking or shipping or something, I want to show up," you could say, "Hey, these are the terms I want to show up on these answer engines." This AEO agent will understand that, make recommendations, measure your visibility, make recommendations on how do you improve that based on where you show up. It might push content changes or schema updates or, you know, change your site structure, measure how it does over the next few days, and keep feeding that loop. And, you know, that's our AEO agent that, you know, really helps you improve your answer engine visibility. **Ollie Forsyth** [16:04] We're only four years into this. Since GPT launched, all of these companies started doing, like, similar products. We're only four years in, but there are a lot of challenges out there. What's the biggest challenge that's keeping you up and, you know, how are you getting through that? ### Challenges **Linda Tong** [16:21] Oh, man. I have so many challenges. I think there's actually two big challenges that I'm constantly thinking about all the time. One of them is while you can use AI and, like, agents to really transform how you work, you know, I think there's this narrative out there that's like, "Oh, with AI, like, you only need one employee and then, like, millions of agents." And there's sort of this efficiency concept that people are pushing on of just like, "Oh, just have AI do those things for you." And I would say I still have found that AI is not perfect. And so you'll have it go run things, but you still need human judgment and review on a regular basis while you train and coach these things. And they're constantly iterating. Like, there isn't a world where I'd say, like, "Oh, just have everything run agentically, go watch Netflix." Like, we are not there. And so finding theright balance of what you truly delegate and how much oversight it requires and not falling trap to, like, the popular sort of news where someone's like, "I've replaced, like, all of my employees with agents." Like, that's just not real. You know, you still need people with judgment and with an understanding of quality to actually keep a lot of these workflows in line and finding theright balance and, like, not getting swept away by, you know, fantastic news on, you know, LinkedIn or X is really important. And I think it's like staying close to the technology and knowing what's real and what's sort of aspirational, I think, is one thing to always keep in mind and to, like, guide that and manage expectations accordingly. I think the second is, you know, as we do see improvements in AI where, you know, you can start to delegate more and you do feel like, "Oh, actually, like, this runs good enough. Like, I can just give it a quick check. It's not going to," you know, like, the review time actually shortens. I think as you do that, a lot of questions are like, "Oh, how should we rethink our roles individually? Like, what is my job as a leader or what is the role of, you know, an individual in any function? You know, how does it change when they can now be super powered with AI?" And going through that change management is really tough. And, you know, I think naturally humans are in general, like, resistant to change because it's just tough. You know, regardless of whether the change is good or bad for you, change is just tough. And helping people go through those changes in a, you know, it's non-binary,right? Like, it is like a constant shift on a spectrum. Managing people through that and helping them go through that transformation is probably one of the hardest challenges we always face as a society. And this is one where the change is quite disruptive. **Ollie Forsyth** [18:48] You know, this human change,right, is actually fundamental. You know, we used to have all these team standups. You'll have your engineers writing code all day. Now we're going maybe to agent managers. We can speed up velocity on just the things we can do is four or five times as fast. But I feel sorry for the people who are coming into the workforce,right? You know, the engineer, the grad who's been studying software engineering for four or five years, like, their job is kind of like obsolete now. **Linda Tong** [19:15] It's tough. The jobs, as we originally imagined them, might be obsolete, but I think there's still work for them. I think the challenge is defining what that new work is and being able to, like, create new career pathways for it. I'll give you a good example,right? Like, a lot of times people have, like, a sales is such a structured funnel,right? Like, early college, like, new career grads, a lot of times will start as, like, an SDR. And they're, like, sending emails all day or they're doing phone calls and they're trying to get leads. And it's a tough job. It used to take so many hours. You could do only so many phone calls a day or send so many emails and, you know, manage a follow-up. And now with AI, you can fundamentally shift that,right? You can have an AI agent that's making phone calls on your behalf, or you can have an AI agent that's writing, like, thousands of emails and sending them out. And so that job now changes from not just being like, "Oh, send out 500 more emails," because, like, that's actually not necessarily great, but actually having the judgment to say, "Okay, let's maybe do some more research. Who are theright people to email? How might I want to customize these emails to drive better conversion rate on them?" Or, you know, what are the learnings from the phone calls that these agents are making that we can incorporate into our workflow? And so it's a, you might still want someone who oversees a team of agents who are doing that. And that could be an early in career role of just saying, "Hey, we made 10 phone calls. Here's what we learned. What would you do differently?" But it just changes that role. And, you know, I don't think it makes it obsolete, but I think it's a, how do I take that role and make it more performance than it would have been when the entire time was spent making phone calls and writing emails? And it's a shift because now instead of saying, "Hey, you're making phone calls and writing emails," you're like, "You're reviewing phone calls and emails. You're strategizing new ways to do it. You're testing new hypotheses. Maybe you're creating a new ritual for how the phone call should go." And while that's still, while I think it adds value, it's just different expectations. ### Pricing **Ollie Forsyth** [21:10] Everything has changed in the last 24 months, maybe 36 months. You know, we've seen human behavior change and how human roles are done. Fundraising for companies obviously has never been as quick, never been more challenging, but also just how companies, especially software companies, how they price software companies. Are they going to die or are they dying? The way they price. **Linda Tong** [21:34] I think the pricing models themselves are, like, we think about them as, we simplify them,right? Like, the debate is, "Oh, should you be subscription-based pricing? Should you be seat-based pricing? Should you be consumption-based pricing?" Or now people are like, "Oh, just like ride the token wave or outcome-based pricing." I think you have to go back to first principles of pricing. I don't think it's that, like, "Oh, however you priced in the past isn't going to work anymore and it's gone." And you actually have to say, like, "What is the magic behind pricing?" Like, how should people just be pricing the products that they sell? And the first principle of pricing is if you want to drive predictable pricing and if you can, you ultimately want to price as close as possible to the value. So if I'm delivering something of value to you, instead of pricing on something that, like, has no real measurement, I want to charge you for that inherent value that you're getting. And, you know, before, access to the software, so subscription-based pricing, was the closest thing to the value. And then they realized, "Well, actually, per seat, because each individual is getting value." So seat-based pricing made sense. Consumption pricing actually got really close because you're like, "Oh, the more you use it, the more value you're getting." Now with token-based pricing, it's the same concept. You're like, "Oh, the more you use it, the more value you're getting." And soon as people are talking about outcome-based pricing, you're saying, "Oh, well, like, really, you want to use this product to get to this outcome. So if you just pay me for every outcome you get, then great." So I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with any of those pricing models. I think what we're doing is we're just seeing that with AI, we're able to get to points where you can actually meter on something that is that much closer to the value that you deliver that you can potentially price on it. Because before, you couldn't necessarily do that. It wasn't always apparent. And so there may be cases where access to the software might still actually be the closest thing to value. And it's okay to price that way. Sometimes seats might still be the best way to use it. But what you might find is, like, you know, for every company, you have to ask yourself, "Is that the closest way to measure the value of my product?" Or do I, like, when I look at negotiating solutions with procurement, they're like, "This doesn't make sense. I'm paying all this money for a million seats, but really it's only like 10 people who actually get value out of it, but I need to have," like, you know, you find all these holes in pricing negotiations. And I think it's a good business will look at that and look at how hard they have to negotiate their price. And if they find that the negotiations are tough and they're constant, they probably haven't priced close to value. **Ollie Forsyth** [23:53] The way new pricing is going, do you think it will maybe see a combination of pricing models with these software companies? **Linda Tong** [23:59] Definitely. Definitely. I think sometimes, you know, one that I'm seeing ariseright now is there's almost like a ticket to entry. It's almost like a, you know, price for access. And it's like a low price. It's like a very similar, like, sort of access price and then sort of a value-based price where, you know, for every incremental bit of value that you get out of it, it's the outcomes you drive or the consumption you use. I'm seeing sort of like a metered price that goes on top of that. So you can see high, like, high predictability in sort of your access point and then, you know, sort of high variability in your consumptive use. And that's sort of been the most common thing I'm now seeing. So whether it's a, you know, think about it as like a product like Datadog for observability. You know, you're paying for just the coverage that you're getting, so the size of your environment, and then you're paying for volume of data that you're observing or measuring or metering against. **Ollie Forsyth** [24:53] If you're enjoying today's episode, hit subscribe at the bottom of your screen. The guests on this show are getting bigger and bigger, and we need your help to grow this channel. So if you're enjoying today's guests or any previous episodes, hit subscribe, and I promise you it'll be worth it. ### CEO role **Ollie Forsyth** [25:11] Now back to today's episode. You've been in the CEO role for a couple of years now. It's probably never been harder though,right? **Linda Tong** [25:21] I would guess, yes, but to be fair, I've only been a CEO for so many years in my career. And so I can't say that this is harder than, you know, maybe like different moments in time, like, you know, 2008 when we saw, like, you know, a major recession or in the early 2000s with dot-com bubbles. Like, so I'm not sure, to be honest, but what I can say is in my personal experience, what has been really different about being a leaderright now than even having been a senior leader, you know, over the past couple of decades is the pace of change is so fast that every single thing I learned in my career about how to do something, I've had to, like, question. And it's exciting because you get to question these things and create new norms, but it's also incredibly disruptive because, you know, a big part of building experience as a leader is that you've been there, you've done that, you can start to pattern match and you can start to do things and follow best practices that you've leveraged before. I'm very rarely leaning on a lot of my best practices. And really, I'm like learning with, you know, as the world evolves and I'm creating new approaches and new methodologies for how I lead in this environment than, you know, how I would have led, you know, five or ten years ago. **Ollie Forsyth** [26:33] You know, typically when we see all of these large companies, typically maybe, you know, before they did a big update once a year, twice a year, a lot of these AI models are now doing small updates or large updates every few weeks, every few months. Every time these AI models do an update, how disruptive is that to your product roadmap? **Linda Tong** [26:52] Very. This is the time where, like, the most important thing you build, especially if you're dependent on all these models, is like your eval system. Because every time they change, you want to make sure that all your evals are still running and you're passing all these tests and, like, they didn't completely flip the kind of output that they generate within your product space. But it's a, so, you know, sometimes it can be wildly disruptive. Sometimes it is, you know, they're like incremental changes and you don't really see that change the output, you know, within our product. But it does force you, like, there's two compounding effects. One is as the technology that you're relying on in your product changes, you have to constantly stay on top of that. But two, we're also shipping really fast. So it's a, you know, models are changing, you know, regularly, almost daily. We're shipping daily. I mean, we're shipping, we went from a world where, like, yeah, you'reright. Some people might have, like, a big release, like, once or twice a year. You know, we're shipping features every single day of the week. And it's a, like, it is so hard to, like, completely change your go-to-market model to, like, align with that. And when you have two compounding points of, like, the technology under you is shipping and changing, and you're also launching new products for your customers, and these two things are happening at the same time, you have to have a really strong infrastructure that is continuously providing observability into your environment to understand what's performing, what's not, like, how are you measuring yourself? Are the evals passing? Like, you know, and are the products that you're building, in fact, you know, performant and reliable and actually delivering the value that you want? It's a lot of, like, keeping your eyes on a bigger moving system that is never stopping or stabilizing. It is, like, constantly shifting. So it's wild. You know, it feels like the Wild West, but it's also, like, incredibly exciting. ### Future of web **Ollie Forsyth** [28:36] And let's not forget, we're only five years in,right? GPT launched November 2021. So what, we're five years in. We just had a couple of founders on the show. You know, even the next six or twelve months, who the hell knows, you know, where it's going to go. What's your take? Next six to twelve months, where are we going to be heading? **Linda Tong** [28:54] No idea. It's a, so my background, I started as a product manager. Like, that's sort of my core capability. I remember I used to do these, like, I would always present, like, my 12-month roadmap and then my, like, three to five-year long-range roadmap. **Ollie Forsyth** [29:09] Three to five years like today? **Linda Tong** [29:11] It's like, it's unheard of. **Ollie Forsyth** [29:12] Irrelevant now. **Linda Tong** [29:13] Right now, we don't even have a 12-month roadmap. We do six-month roadmaps and we do monthly reviews. Like, and even our six-month roadmaps are constantly shifting. It just feels silly to plan further than that because there's so much change. You're like, why am I wasting time doing that? Like, all you really need to do is, like, have the north star of what you're going after and you're constantly, like, weaving your way there. And so, yeah, like, trying to predict, like, what will the next six months look like? You know, I could take some, like, you know, very simple dots and try and connect them and be like, well, models will continue to get better. The areas where models are making mistakes, I'm sure they're going to learn. How we start to think about, like, agents running in loops as opposed to, like, sort of, like, one-directional, just, like, point A to point B agents. Like, I think we're going to see more things running in closed-loop cycles and you're going to see more ownership given to agents. You're going to see people shift more into strategic roles that are running teams of agents and you're going to start to see org structures transform. You know, these are things where you can sort of see dots and connect them and see them occur. But I think, like, what are the bigger shifts? Like, you know, for my space in particular, I think a lot about, like, what is a website? You know, people are like, well, websites exist in the future. Like, why should I even have a website? And my challenge to that, and this is, you know, me sort of trying to connect a couple of dots, but like, I believe the website actually becomes the most important source of truth or it's your context on the digital world. And I think they don't become what we think of them as today. Like, people think of a website as I type in a URL and I see some visual experience as a website. And to me, a website is actually its context that's hosted on a server somewhere and then accessed. And it's accessed via, you know, you can type in a URL and see it as a webpage. Or I think the other thing is what we're seeing now is websites are context that's indexed,right? So a bot might go hit it and, you know, index your context and then represent it somewhere else. You may see components of your website actually indexed as opposed to, like, an all-or-nothing of, like, you get a visual experience where a bot just gets some markdown. It could be maybe I start to see pieces of my website or my experience show up inside of an answer engine or as a component within a broader website. And then I think how people interact with them, I think, will fundamentally change. And this is, you know, a parallel that I think about with, like, maps. You know, think about a couple of decades ago, if you wanted to drive from, you know, say, like, New York City to, I don't know, like, Washington, DC, you would go on MapQuest, which, I mean, does anyone use MapQuest anymore? But, like, you'd go on MapQuest and you would type in the cities and you get these, like, turn-by-turn directions on how to take I-95 down, you know, these five states to get there. And you would have to follow them to a T because that was the only way you knew how to get there. And it was just like this static direction path. And nowadays, you just, like, get in your car and start driving and your GPS auto, like, changes. So, you know, if there's a car accident or if road blockages or something happens or if you just decide you want to take the scenic route, it's constantly learning and iterating and showing you the path to get there. I think websites are going to go through the same transformation. Today, websites are a static experience with a very static site structure and, like, structured pages, structured content, and maybe, like, a couple of variants,right? You can get three or four versions of that site. I think what's going to happen is they're going to go through what I would call the Google Maps evolution, which is you go to experience a site and as you interact with it, it's constantly interacting with you and changing that experience based on your own personal journey. And I think that that is going to be one of the biggest transformations in how people think about the web and how they show up on the web. That's probably my, like, closest thing to saying, what do I think might happen in the next six to twelve months? **Ollie Forsyth** [32:46] You think we're six to twelve months away from that? **Linda Tong** [32:49] I think we're going to start to see subsegments of that show up in the next six to twelve months. **Ollie Forsyth** [32:53] I mean, perhaps it's not going to be us even seeing these websites,right? It's going to be our agents. I think this is a really interesting point around, like, this personalized web experience. This is kind of happening, but it's not really happening yet,right? This is potentially the next big shift for technology. **Linda Tong** [33:10] Yeah. And I would say, like, a breadcrumb of, you know, because I think it's not a, like, we're going to wake up and one day the web is going to feel like that. You're going to see, I think, like, little experience changes. And some of them you can already see today. So a good example is, you know, I don't know how much you love sneakers, but, like, I saw this cool experience the other day on Nike where I went in, I looked at a sneaker,right? And, like, you already have this impersonalization. You look at a sneaker and it shows you, like, similar sneakers to the one that you looked at,right? So that's everywhere. But what was cool was, like, I selected a size and suddenly when I went back to their inventory page, it only showed sneakers in that size that were available. And it ordered them by the ones that were most like the sneaker I saw. So it truly created a highly personalized experience for me that suddenly took two points of input that I had, that sort of, like, these two interactions that I had, which is, like, I selected a sneaker to look at and I selected my size. And suddenly my layout was fundamentally different. Like, if you think about that as, like, the first steps out of how do I go into this Google Maps world of the web of, like, suddenly it's interacting with me. You know, these two inputs drove a completely different experience. And that's very doable today. Like, that's not, you know, futuristic technology. You can absolutely unlock that today. And if you just take it so many steps further, that's when you start to unlock that hyper-personalized navigation experience that I was talking about. **Ollie Forsyth** [34:26] You know, I think the next big opportunity for all of these companies, one is trust and the second is security. Some headlines have been made recently,right? It was only AI models with security problems. But trust ultimately is going to be the biggest moat, I think, for a lot of these companies. How do you think about building credible trust with your fanatical users? **Linda Tong** [34:48] It's super important. I think trust and security go hand in hand with each other. When people use your products or your software, they expect things, like, it's super easy. As a product person, people just expect it to work. And part of something working is not like, oh, the trade-off is if it works, you're going to leak my information or you're going, like, you're going to do this in an insecure way that suddenly I'm, like, exposed to, like, sort of, you know, all these other risks. And there is this inherent assumption when people interact with products and software that it doesn't just work, but it comes with all these underlying components. It should work safely. Like, you should treat me as, you know, a person with, like, private and personal information. You should not, you know, you should not unnecessarily expose security risks. Like, there should be governance in place, like, especially software like ours with collaboration oriented. I have multiple people using it. They have very different roles and permissions. Those things all have to be built in as a foundation. And if they're not, then, like, one, you're either about to, like, trick someone who has those assumptions and they're going to be brutally surprised and disappointed when something goes wrong. Or they're just not going to interact with you. Like, it is just, like, foundational of, like, how do you start a relationship with someone from, you know, a business perspective? It has to be built in. And it's just how you, like, this is where I think some people talk about, like, oh, build fast, break things. Just, like, build something and people will use it. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. When you actually work with people who actually are running a business and are, you know, they're trusting you with their most important assets, those foundations just have to be there. And, like, there's no question. You can't, they're your P0. ### Running & winning **Ollie Forsyth** [36:26] You know, with so much happening and it's such a fast-growing company, there's so many things moving past,right, every single day. How do you run Webflow today? **Linda Tong** [36:36] I don't have a good answer for that in that, like, there isn't, I don't have, like, a ritual or set of routines that I do to, like, just run the company,right? It's rather, it's about going into every single day and thinking about how can I add the most impact and value in the role that I'm in. And every day is different. Whether I need to, like, dive in on our product strategy with my leadership team or if I have to think about go-to-market challenges or if we're thinking about hiring and, like, our geo strategy, every single day is different. And so, like, if I had to boil it down to the most common things that I do or the common practices I leverage as a leader, it would be about, you know, one, constantly focusing myself on, like, understanding where is the most impact I can have on the business and how can I best use my time every day. And two, trying to have enough understanding of everything that's going on. So making sure that I carry enough context of what's going on in the business with me to guide that judgment. And then building up strong leaders in every area and giving them enough alignment to our strategy so that they can point theirselves towards the north star but have enough autonomy to run their areas of the business effectively. It's about staying on top of everything, but every day making hard decisions on where to spend my time and what to do to add value. **Ollie Forsyth** [37:53] Is anything keeping you up at night or? I'll ask you a few things. **Linda Tong** [37:58] I mean, things are always keeping me up at night. You know, one is anytime I sleep, I feel like technology is moving ahead and I just need to catch up because it's like those are hours that something's moving that I'm not. And, you know, I think that's just the, I think that's the reality of the moment that we live in. But the things that I'm constantly thinking about are, especially in the space that I'm in, is you always have to ask yourself, like, what new existential threat is out there that I need to think about and I need to either iterate or adjust our strategy to consider. That is something that I would say in the past, you might have these existential threats that come up, but, like, you'd have time and you, and then, you know, you weren't seeing new ones every couple of weeks or every month or something. And so you could sort of, like, I don't know, pace yourself through it. There's a lot less pace and there's not really any time to go through these cycles of, like, spiking and, like, figuring things out and then sort of, like, you know, being able to come down from that spike and actually execute and be heads down. Like, you're just spiking every day. And so it can be mentally exhausting, but it's also one of those things where if you love it, it's like a healthy form of stress. And if you love constantly thinking about, like, how do you navigate a business in a day like today with the technology changes that you're seeing regularly, then this may not be for you as a leader. **Ollie Forsyth** [39:15] It's like a sports game,right? There are so many opportunities, so many different, like, tactics you always have to be thinking about. But at the end of the day, like, if you want to build a company, you're here to win. How do you think about winning in this, you know, design, web building, vibe coding type of space? **Linda Tong** [39:32] When I think about winning, it's about making sure that I don't get lost in the moment. You know, like, everyone's like, oh, what am I going to do with AI and how will I win with AI? AI is just a technology. It's not actually a strategy. I think the way to win is the same way to win that everyone has always leaned on regardless of, like, what era you're in, which is, am I building something that is delivering value to the people that I'm trying to sell it to? And if I'm solving a very real problem for them, like a meaningful problem, and I'm solving it the best way possible, then I have aright to win,right? And obviously the problem needs to be big and, like, you have to address, like, a large enough TAM and you have to do it in a way that's so fundamentally different and innovative that you are the best at solving that problem. But, you know, winning is about identifying that problem and solving it. It's as simple as that. And for us, like, the problem, you know, I thinkright now with AI, the problem that people are trying to solve is, like, not everyone can build,right? The democratization of technology was a problem that people are solving. And we started this conversation talking about the fact that, like, while everyone can be a builder now, what do you build? Like, what is worth building? I think that's a problem that's not solved. And the other thing is, like, once you've built it, then what? And the then what has always been a massive problem. And for Webflow, we think about it as we're going to solve the then what, which is a unique problem that we're really good at solving. And as we learn more, we can actually help frame the, like, what is the value to build? And so for us, that's how I want us to win. I want us to be, like, focused on what are the core problems that people run into and then how do we create a differentiated solution in doing that? **Ollie Forsyth** [41:12] You know, obviously there's such a big gigantic, you know, opportunity with everything happening. I thought I would just get this FOMO. Are we just 1% of the way there? Are we 5% of the way there? **Linda Tong** [41:24] I think we're scratching the surface. Mostly because I think that we've barely, like, I think we've barely figured out how to leverage technology in ways that, like, will fundamentally change, like, our experiences as humans,right? Like, I was just complaining to someone the other day. I'm like, we have AI that can build an app with a prompt,right? But I still run into these issues where, like, I was just trying to book, like, a doctor's appointment and they were like, oh, our scheduling system doesn't open for another, like, you know, six months out. So you have to call us in three months to schedule this appointment. And I was like, are you kidding me? You can't build a calendaring system that allows you to book an appointment six months. Like, we still run into these really basic problems every day. And, like, so that's convinced me that we're, like, really scratching the surface. Like, if you anchor yourself in how are we using AI to solve meaningful problems? Like, I think we just, like, haven't, we haven't nailed it yet. You know, there's just so many, there's so many spaces for us to transform and, like, actually deliver value. And I think the other problem is a lot of times, you know, you were just saying at the beginning, we have, like, all these companies who are building builder tools. If you want to, like, if you want to write code to create a website or an application, there's now hundreds of tools, whereas, you know, years ago there's like four. I really want to see us as a, you know, species, you know, as humanity. Like, not all just, like, race towards one problem, but actually race towards a multitude of problems and spend time thinking about what are the challenges that we face on a regular basis and build solutions for those. And I just think we haven't gotten close to, like, truly, you know, if there's, like, if 100% of all the problems in the world were solved,right? And that's really saying, like, great, we solved it. I think, yeah, we're at 1%. Like, and we're all focused on the same 1%, which is the problem. So yeah, maybe the technology is there, but I don't think the actual execution with it has actually, like, done anything. **Ollie Forsyth** [43:24] Yeah. And I think it's just going to be really interesting to see how these business models evolve,right? Like, if you look at the likes of Airtable,right, they got acquired last week for, like, two and a half times enterprise value, give or take. This company is turning in $500 million in annual current revenue. And they get sold for two and a half times enterprise value. Just times are gone. Times are changing. **Linda Tong** [43:45] Oh, yeah. I mean, like, what was their last private valuation prior to this? It was like $11 billion, something like that? **Ollie Forsyth** [43:51] Yeah, $11.5. **Linda Tong** [43:52] Yeah. I mean, like, so just the economics of how you think about valuations, like, you know, it's completely changed over the past five years. And I think it's going to continue to change. And so knowing that it's going to just be a continuous up and down and we're going to see very different ways in which people value companies and value revenue, it's important not to get caught in, like, a hype cycle. And I think more important to, like, go back to the fundamentals of, you know, are you building a meaningful business? Is it profitable? Is it growing? Is it solving a big enough problem in which your TAM can be meaningful enough to, like, you know, have you saturated your market or not? Or how close are you to saturating it? And is it sustainable? Like, are you building a durable business? Like, as long as you're focused on theright things as you build, you know, you just have to find sort of theright cycle and how valuations are to, you know, if you're thinking about liquidity or exits. But, like, at the end of the day, you just, you know, as a leader for me, I'm just constantly thinking about how am I building a durable business to make Webflow applicable and valuable for the rest of time and whether we get acquired or IPO or, you know, whatever. As long as I build a business that is self-sustaining on its own and default alive, we will have the optionality to choose whatever outcome we want. And so that's really the driving force. ### Off the clock **Ollie Forsyth** [45:10] You know, I asked you briefly earlier, how do you run Webflow? But if I was to come and join as your Chief of Staff for a week, what will you be doing and what do those days look like? It's a question we ask on each show and it's just so interesting to see, you know, how do each leader run their companies? **Linda Tong** [45:26] Oh, man. I mean, if you talk to my current Chief of Staff, she would probably tell you that her job changes every day. **Ollie Forsyth** [45:31] And don't do it or do do it? **Linda Tong** [45:34] I would say, I mean, you know, to each their own, but I would say my recommendation would be like, do it. It is, I tell everyone, like, you know, there's so many people who are, you know, these Insta millionaires coming out of SpaceX or, you know, Anthropic or whatever. And they're like, I'm going to retire. And I'm like, I'm never going to retire. This is the most fun I've ever had. I am facing new problems all the time and I'm getting to innovate and solve them. I'm working with teams on how do we want to change what we build, how we show up, how we build together. It is a, it's like a high learning, high evolution, very quick cycle. And so if you think about it as learning in, like, tighter cycles than you've ever learned before, having exposure to so many spaces and problems, getting time to, like, sit back and think about what could the future look like? What could the future of the web look like? You know, and for us, like, what is the living web? It is like a job where you're constantly going to have something pulling at different parts of your brain and, like, lighting it up and forcing you to exercise very different muscles and different skill sets on a daily basis. So whether it's a prepping for a board meeting or reviewing a roadmap and, like, working with a team to, like, iterate on our strategy to communicating with our organization to meeting with customers and, like, helping them understand what we're doing, where we're going and how we support them. Like, you know, talking to analysts or doing interviews, like, it is a constant, like, change and shift, but it's one that, like, it gives me energy because I feel like I am being pushed to, like, reshape myself and grow myself every day in really uncomfortable ways. And, like, you know, when you come out of it, you know, it's after a workout, you feel, like, tight, you have lactic acid, but then the next day you feel great. Imagine that cycle, 24 hours, like, every 24 hours you go through that. It's wild. **Ollie Forsyth** [47:20] I'm getting the sense you don't really sleep that much, but what do you do actually outside of work? **Linda Tong** [47:27] I have, like, a pretty, like, one, I love working. I actually, like, not working per se, where people think of, like, work is, like, not playing. Like, to me, work is really interesting because I am reading about what's going on. I'm looking at the cool things that our teams are building. I'm, like, thinking about our strategy. So I love doing that. And then when I'm not doing that, I am, I love playing soccer. So on the weekends, I play pickup soccer with a cool crew of people. I love gambling, so I play a lot of, like, craps, blackjack, poker, you know, things that are, like, also very similar to, like, my day-to-day. It's like these tight, like, loops where you're going really fast, you're, like, betting and seeing results. And then I'm a big sports person. So we're about to enter preseason for NFL. It is, like, the best time of the year for me. I love watching football. But yeah, so it's a pretty, like, what I would call, like, basic non-work life. And then my work life really just drives a lot of the stimulation. **Ollie Forsyth** [48:22] This is so awesome. And you know, to build great companies, it also takes great board members, investors to do this with you,right? **Linda Tong** [48:29] Oh, yeah. **Ollie Forsyth** [48:29] If you could have anyone join your board, who would that person be and what would you like to learn from them? **Linda Tong** [48:36] One, I actually, I got one of my dream board members. So, like, I'm super lucky. Her name is Sue Bostrom. She is brilliant. She was previously, like, CMO of Cisco on the board of ServiceNow, Samsara. She is, like, this, she's this brilliant mind. And the reason why she was someone I wanted to go after, like, when we opened up our first independency, I wanted her so badly. She's this person who is so smart and, like, her, like, impact per word spoken is probably the highest of any human I've ever met in my life. Like, you know, where you might have scheduled a 30-minute meeting with someone to, like, get something done, she can call me in a, like, 30-word conversation, get the same kind of value out. Like, and it's just unbelievable. Like, she's brilliant. She not only comes with, like, deep expertise from the marketing space, which is highly relevant for Webflow, but she is a human that just thinks at another level. She, like, the way she computes through things and understands, like, context to problem to, like, then synthesis out, she understands it really well and then she articulates it in so few but clear words. She's, like, next level. So one, I got my dream board member already. But if I could add another one, somebody who I, like, deeply admire that I've, like, sort of, you know, I love how he thinks is Ed Catmull. He wrote, you know, ran Pixar. But the way that he ran Pixar and, like, you know, I love his book Creativity, Inc. I think he's truly innovative. You know, like, people think about Pixar as creative because of, like, the output of what it does. I think of Pixar as creative because of how Ed Catmull thought about creative ways to bring humans together to do bigger things,right? Like this one plus one equals 10 type of synergy of, like, how he brought people together for a bigger purpose and the creative ways in which he created the culture and the environment of that company. And, like, I turn to that book all the time when I think about, like, how should we be thinking differently about even, like, how we have meetings or how we make decisions or how we drive our strategy. **Ollie Forsyth** [50:39] He would be so great for you guys. Maybe you should try and get him. I don't know if you've spoken to him, but. **Linda Tong** [50:42] I may have to try, yeah. **Ollie Forsyth** [50:45] Maybe one day. We are trying to get him on our show. So if we get him on our show, we can do, like, a mutual intro or something, you know? Well, there's the big vision here. You know, Webflow can go into so many different places. ### The vision **Ollie Forsyth** [50:55] Looking in the next 12, 24 months, you know, what are you thinking? **Linda Tong** [50:59] You know,right now, I think a lot of teams, and there's technology out thereright now where teams are like, oh, here's the software I need to run my team and, like, operate my marketing organization. Where I think the next gap is, is it's not just about buying, you know, software capabilities, but it's really about how you operate it and run it. And I think about Webflow, you know, why we are an agentic marketing platform and no longer, like, a website builder is because I think of us as a partner to marketing teams and to CMOs. And what I've told all the CMOs I talked to today is, if you want to build a modern marketing organization, we are your partner. Like, you're not buying software from us. You're actually going to be buying your team. You're going to be buying agentic workers that work hand-in-hand with the existing team that you have to drive modern marketing, whether it's running your campaigns, thinking about how you launch products, representing you digitally via your web assets, creating the content that you put out on social, helping you tell your story, helping you make sure that you have a clear brand OS that is, like, central to how you reflect yourselves to others through all these different channels and marketing. To us, we're both the technology that you need to operate, but the team, the agents that pair with your team to actually operate it. And that is, that's what I want Webflow to be for everybody. You know, we've summarized it in a really clean way as, you know, we are building for the teams that are shaping what's next. Because to us, it's the future marketing teams that are thinking about what does this function look like. We are building the end-to-end solution for them. **Ollie Forsyth** [52:31] I love it. Well, I'm super excited for you. I really appreciate your time and thank you so much for coming on the show. **Linda Tong** [52:36] Awesome. Thank you for having me. This is awesome. --- This library is powered by PodHood (https://podhood.com), the podcast website platform.